--- by JLS
------ for the GC
---- JASON K. is commenting in "The greatest living philosopher":
there is a linguistic tic among the native population of phrasing questions, thus:
-- Would you not care for a beer? -- Do you not think he should be here by now? -- You're not going?! (when you get up to go, put on your coat, open the door, etc)
Yes, it is strange. I wonder the Gricean reason. I suppose 'not' is a polite marker, "Would you not care for a beer?" seems more polite than the intrusive, "Would you care for a beer?". In that the first, but not the second, requires a 'si' in French (the second requires a 'oui' -- or something). In general, when I organise a party I ask the butler (if I have one) to just OFFER things. I find that the pre-request ("Would you, would you not, ...") tends to inhibit people. I know it inhibits me. If I am asked, out of the blue, if I would care NOT for a beer? I first feel pity for the beer. Someone is asking me to care for it.
"Do you not think he should be here by now?" is more of a neg-raising, so called by the linguists. It asks for: say yes or no to "I don't think he should be here by now". It seems more polite than the affirmative, which is a sordid inquisition in our doxastic beliefs. Cfr. "Do you believe in God?" -- versus the far more polite, "Don't you believe in God?".
The third, "You're not going?" is also a marker of politeness. Surely it would be rude, under the circumstances (hat on, door open), if not downright otiose, to ask whether you are going. Surely the implicature is that the utterer does NOT desire you to leave.
The Irish can be a very polite lot. Etc.
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I've noticed that in restaurants with the most attentive service, the staff always asks only for permission:
ReplyDeleteMay I bring you a drink? (Not "Would you like something from the bar?"
May I take your order? (Not, "Are you ready to order?")
May I clear? (Not "Are you finished?")
May I show you the dessert menu? (Not "Would you like to see the dessert menu?)
Is there anything I can do for you? (Not "How is everything?")
In the theatre of the restaurant, all inquiries into the customer's state of mind are unduly intrusive. The waiter needs only to know what he has permission to do. Anything else takes us into the customer's psyche, where strangers, and especially, servants, are not welcome.
All questions imply entitlement, and the waiter has no entitlement beyond the information he needs to do his job for the customer's benefit. That information need never be inferred from other information, which, by hypothesis, is beyond the waiter's need to know. Thus, the waiter asks for permission, and he gets it or does not, with no further intrusion into the diner's mind.
It's quite a formalized ritual.
Agreed.
ReplyDelete"Anything else takes us into the customer's psyche, where strangers, and especially, servants, are not welcome."
Likewise, the customer does not want to experience the servant's character. I have observed here in Guatemala (where service is often very good, as one would expect after 500 years of training for the role), that the bad service, when it is encountered, happens against a background of the person being 'nice' or 'interesting' etc, supplementing their lack of skill with 'personality'. This led me to an outburst, after being presented with a coffee and then having to ask for sugar, wait for sugar, ask again for sugar, of "I don't want personality! I want total and utter anonymity, that is the mark of doing your job properly, being a functioning absence, a black hole of utter utility..." etc
It is a genuine art, and I appreciate it and am happy to recognise it, *after* the event.
"Are you finished?"
"No. And I will permit you to divine when I *am* finished by smashing a few plates into the wall."
Yes, dears, but you are diverging from the topic. It took me three long minutes to think, "asking the negative" (versus the "proving the negative"). Recall the philosophical importance of the latter, when Bush (or someone) said that it had been proved that there were NO weapons of mass distraction.
ReplyDeleteThe asking of the negative was this Irish 'tick', or 'tic', as Jason prefers to spell it. It _is_ an otiose tick, and I was hoping you would provide further examples. By turning the thing into the waiter's behaviour which blatantly does NOT observe the rule of asking the negative, you are diverging. Therefore leading me to post your nicey info into different threads under proper headings.
Now... Could a waiter ask for the negative? I guess he could. When I'm in a restaurant, my waiters tend to be all of the imperative kind. "Enjoy!". What especially bothers me is when I'm in the middle of the substantial entree (after which I waited more than the waiter), fearing that he'll come and say, "How is the thing?". This question seems particularly silly. I KNOW people are sincere, and would say, "Re-cook it". But I find they ask the question when my mouth is full, so it cannot be that I'm finding the food disgusting. It seems what they want to hear, as they usually do, is a tat for the tit.
Now, questioning the negative,
"Are you not finished?". I've heard that. I usually go to dine with friends. And I recall once she said (the waiter): "I'll take your plate but I can see your friend [meaning me] is still picking there." I found that rude.
"Would you like that NOT wrapped?" sounds better that "Doggy food anyone?".
I know I could never wait on people. It's amazing the number of things I am unable to do. Etc.
Be careful who you chide, JL. We blog commenters are sensitive and dangerous breed. If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
ReplyDeleteTick, tick, tick...
Come on! I have NOW posted (before reading your thing) a longish "Grice at a restaurant" where I provide good input (I hope) to your remarks. Adding to the ones Jason provided. I note for example that out of the, I think 5, examples -- all starting with "May I...?" you add one in the indicative mode -- "Is there anything I can do for you?". What we SHOULD do, too, is compare your lovely versions in brackets -- to see how YOU were expecting the waiter to go the 'direct' or alternative way. No way! But all meant friendlily! Keep them coming. But surely you can comment on the roundabout thing about the asking of a negative? If so, do here! Recall that Jason was noting this was an IRISH thing -- why the Irish? His examples did NOT include a question by a waiter (clumsy as those questions by waiters are -- or 'ex officio' as you note). His examples were:
ReplyDelete-- Are you not leaving? Versus "Are you leaving?
-- You do not care for a beer? versus "You care for a beer?"
-- Should you not think that he is late? versus "Do you think he is late?"
In a way, there is a mathematical simplicity in the Irish tick-tack. ('tick' means flea in Welsh).
For, surely, a yes/no question can only be answered by yes or no. "The negative question" then is a 'no'-loaded question. It reaffirms, alla Blanchot, the absence (of the questioner) -- or his 'absent-mind', as Foucault prefers.
For a proposition, 'p', there is only one direct way of asking. To wit:
p?
the Irish tick,
- p?
is best reserved to ask 'contradictions' of the dialethic type.
2 + 2 = 4
This is tautologous. Similarly,
2 + 3 = 4
is a contradiction. So if I ask you to consent or dissent to "2 + 3 = 4" I AM entitled to use the 'not' question (' - p?'). Elsewhen I'm not?
Etc.
At the risk of appearing dumb, let me make explicit that I am not in the least offended by being accused of being off-topic. I get that a lot.
ReplyDeleteOf course, I don't apologize for being off-topic. Nor do I admit to having been off-topic. Was not the dog who didn't bark "on topic" in not barking? I was commenting, indirectly, on the fact that waiters do not use "not" in their questions? Why not? I was observing, in effect, how the move from aggression to politeness is accomplished by using "not," whereas the move from politeness to obsequiousness is accomplished by not using "not." I just forgot to say so. And I do apologize for that.
On the style-difference between "May I x" and "Is there Y," the difference arises from the open-endedness of the possible answers. The waiter who asks "Is there anything I can do for you?" is asking for permission, but he doesn't know for what. The syntax changes, but not the implied relation of servitude. The latter is the unifying aspect of the questions, n'est-ce pas? (With the French, the negative is way more than a tic, which by the way, I believe is a different word from "tick.")
Thanks. I'll look for the etym. of 'obs-', i.e. obsequiousness, and comment. In an hour or so I should be playing the piano and sing "Oh, cara imago senza eguale" in front of people and should be getting ready. I'm seeing Mozart's "Magic Flute" tomorrow at the local opera and have a bunch of friends gathering today to study the role of Tamino!
ReplyDelete---- Anyway. Surely you can be as off-topic as you can. If 'be relevant' by Grice means something like topical, and I think it's Forster who wrote, "Only connect": you can rely on the addressee finding the connection, so never you mind about anything.
Your explicitation of the link I have to elaborate on as it features this obs- word which while not 'obs-' cene is a good one.
I think you are right. Yes: waiters are obs-
obsequious: in fact, obsequiousness personalised, especially if not French?
I think you are right that J. Kennedy did NOT mispell 'tic'. This must be a Gallic word of Germanic provenance (Old Low Franconian -- 'le tic' -- cfr. 'le chic', pronounced to head-rhyme with 'shugar').
Yes, indeed, "Is there...?" is a permission, too, and I'm glad we are allowing waiters to make the occasional 'not' "May I" question. Oddly, the answers to "May I?" are usually implicit. I don't expect the customer goes all the explicit way in answering, "Yes, you do may". Or something. So I propose:
ReplyDeleteW: May I bring you a drink?
C: Sure.
W (brings drink): May I take your order?
C: Sure.
(Two hours later)
W: May I clear?
C: Sure.
W (after clearing [the table cloth]: May I show you the dessert menu?
C: No. Creme brulee.
----
Oops. I forgot:
ReplyDeleteW: Is there anything [+> else] I can do for you?
C: Not really.
Now for the alternates proposed by Kramer in first commentary to this on-topic thread:
W: Would you like something from the bar?
C: Not the ashtray.
W: Are you ready to order?
C: What time do you close?
W: Are you finished?
C (Jason Kennedy): No. And I will permit you to divine when I *am* finished by smashing a few plates into the wall.
W: How many?
C: Huh?
W: How many plates? You said 'a few'.
C: Huh?
W: I mean, should I wait for the third? or you just mean 'at least two'?
----
W: Would you like to see the dessert menu?
C: I need to put my glasses on. Can you read it for me? Just the price column.
W: How is everything?
C: How was everything? you mean.
Etc.