by JLS
for the GC
J WAS TAKING SERIOUSLY -- I thank him for it -- my reference to "room temperature" as used by that brilliant comedian, Steven Wright (I have to thank L. J. Kramer for having introduced me to that genius). In any case, Wright´s template, as Kramer has it, is "template" -- so what do we make of "room temperature". I once took an American friend of mine to a rather pretentious restaurant in Buenos Aires ("Tomo Uno") and he later criticised me for the choice: "I had never been to such a pretentious restaurant before". All because the waiter asked if we wanted the wine at room temperature. Surely he wasn´t making an a priori synthetic claim by that, so Wright IS flouting common sense when he said, "Whatever temperature the room is it is always room temperature". But I may be missing Wright´s implicature.
Then consider his other template:
"You can´t have everything. Where would you put it?"
I recently sent a post to CHORA which I finalised by that. In a way, it´s a provocation to the Griceian in me. Grice WAS ambitious and thought HE _could_ have everything. He called it "Theory Theory", or as R. B. Jones prefers, the well-known TOE.
But what is Wright parodying then?
Well, unless we popularise Wright´s claim -- and seriously -- we are bound to find the collocation, "you can´t have everyting" or even, upper-case sensitive, "You can´t have everything" as a conversational cliche we have learned, naturally, from our parents. (Father, to be more precise, if we are male).
But Wright´s point is to symbolise.
Surely "everything", for anyone who has passed a course in Logic, gets symbolised by (Ax) -- the A is inverted.
(Ax)
is everything. Surely we need to BIND the thing -- or rather, if we are going to use "x" we have to BIND it with (Ax).
So "You can´t have everything" becomes a trick to formalise. One may need the "!" operator. Yielding
(Ax) - ! (HAVE(YOU,x))
-- This above actually says, you WON´T have anything, eternally spoken. I.e. without recoursing to Myro´s System G which is chronological. -- "won´t" strictly applies to t1 > t0.
But, in CONVERSATION, especially in silly responses by father figures to children that matter,
"You can´t have evertying" -- I bet you to falsify my opinion by googling on this --
refers usually to
"a bicycle or a surfing board"
----
It´s usually between TWO objects which is VERY possible that a child can have.
So, Wright is flouting the explicated content (which, other than Kent Bach, in his variations on Grice nobody cares for) of a rather silly statement.
"Where would you put it?", Wright continues. Exactly.
Strictly, there is the desideratum that in first-order logic, x ranges over "spatio-temporal continuants". Everything does NOT include "beauty" -- which is in the eye of the beholder anyways (sic), but beautiful things: beautiful xs, yx, zs, etc. -- with proper subindexes, of course.
Each x, to exist, must have a spatial continuity. And where can ONE put that?
You may answer: Just LEAVE it there. (This answer would echo Lewis Carroll´s "Sylvie and Bruno" where the German geographer was intending to draw a map with a 1:1 scale. "The farmers objected, -- the sun would not get to the seeds -- but they are using the land as its own map."
The idea that if you HAVE something you have to put it somewhere is ridiculous. This also echoes in another of Wright´s anagrams: "I have the biggest sea shell collection on earth. You may see it whenever you go to the beach. My collection is disseminated all over the place". Of course he says it MUCH better. Genius!
Thursday, June 3, 2010
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Strictly, there is the desideratum that in first-order logic, x ranges over "spatio-temporal continuants". Everything does NOT include "beauty" -- which is in the eye of the beholder anyways (sic), but beautiful things: beautiful xs, yx, zs, etc. -- with proper subindexes, of course.
ReplyDeleteI'm tempted to agree, but logicians often use a sort of whimsy logic don't they? (Lewis Carroll for obvious instance). One can use whimsy logic (WL) and still get formal arguments: "if pigs fly, then sharks sing". "Pigs Fly!" "Ergo, Sharks Sing!" Valid, but unsound.....(and probably obvious as like Johnny Searle's views on rent control...)
Good point. I was referring, though, to the point about:
ReplyDelete--- You can't have everything.
--- Where would you put it?
You would NOT be able to put evertying anywhere.
---
Therefore, you can't have everything.
---
I was referring to the fact that Wright is being a relentless (or obdurate) literalist when he interprets, you can't have everything SOMEWHERE, because there is no place (or anything that answers 'where?') to put it, i.e. everything.
But I was wondering that this applies to first-order logic with spatio-temporal continuants as basic individuals -- with a focus on the SPATIAL. For surely there's room, always, for MORE of an abstract entity, in, say, someone's heart.
Things like 'beauty', 'number', 'equality', 'justice', 'love', -- indeed most important things -- do not occupy a room. So it seems strictly (but stupidly) to make a point (I AM being stupid) to say, "Where would you put it?"
"Come on. I'm not talking of things which you can put, or cease to put, ANYWHERE. I'm talking abstract."
----- Vis a vis this, it may do to revise other implicatures of "You can't have everything". I suggested that it's usually vaguely uttered, and ambiguously, to mean something more than it says. Or less.
In my experience, it relates to:
"I'll have the chocolate cake -- and the icecream". "You can't have everything".
Or:
"Milano -- Firenze -- and then Venezia". "You can't have everything". Or something of the sort.
Only in very special circumstances seem that the phrase can be literally interpreted in the sense that, the options revealed, their sum does sum up for 'everything'.
E.g.
-- Right or left?
-- Both: right AND left.
-- You can't have everything.
---------- Where: right + left DOES sum up the whole spectrum. Surely one can STOP and don't go either right or left, so perhaps the option is vague in that scenario. Etc.
Again, a first-page of google hits for "You can't have everything may do". And I'd bet that the addition of "Where would you put it?" only would go to MINIMISE the claim, by proving that one really CAN have the options mentioned, and that ROOM is _Never_ an issue. Or not!
Quite right. When Jr. says "I'll have the chocolate cake -- and the icecream", and Papa responds, "You can't have everything", Papa does not thereby mean to have implied, like, a universal with infinite scope or something (""and the ...Sun too, pops!""). So Papa just offers words of wisdom, a platitude, not predicate logic.
ReplyDeleteTrue. But how do we DERIVE the implicatum: You have to decide between the icecream and the chocolate cake, from the platitude that the boy is sure to know that even if he COULD have everything, where would he put it?
ReplyDelete-- The "and the ... Sun, too, pops" applies but it´s sort of volunteered. In fact, in an essay I presented to Jabberwocky (and got published!) I refer to the Moon-Asking-Prohibition, or something. He asks for the moon. I use that as a base to elaborate on a point about "INTENTION" versus mere "WILL". One CAN will the moon, but one cannot really ASK for it. It would be like, conceptually, an intention means a FEASIBLE will.
One would think that "You can´t have both" seems fairer. In some cases, where more than 2 are indicated, perhaps some ambiguity may arise:
"I want the chococolate cake, the icecream, and the creme brulee"
"You can´t have everything".
"You mean I can have TWO?"
--- I suppose it´s more irritating when the remark is meant as something SPIRITUAL: like meet someone of this or that characteristic and the remark is meant to indicate: "Stop idealising". Sort of: "Count your blessings."
I WOULD accept it, logically, in cases where what is asserted is some sort of logical impossibility:
"I would like to be a flying pig"
"You can´t have everything" -- meaning, pigs don´t fly as part of their essence.
Or something.
I would agree (if that's what yr suggesting )that an adult speaker probably intends something "contextual" with "you can't have everything", as in you have to limit yourself to something on the menu, and and only one item. But that would be site-specific, would it not? (if not...economic in a sense)
ReplyDeleteSay a rich Papa takes Jr car shopping on his graduation from Henry Kissinger High school. At first he'd probably say, choose anything you want, Jr. But of course he doesn't really mean that--were Jr to say, I want a Porsche AND a Hummer, PLUS a yukon..." then Pops says, "come on, you can't have everything". So Jr. says, what can I have then? Pops counts his shekels, and says, well, "you can have anything under 10 grand." So the (x) has been limited--a domain established.
THat's not real fancy (probably boring), but the usual purchase/sales conversation seems rather open-ended (and salesman/deals another factor), at least until it's time to lay down the shekels.
Yes, I agree about the context. Stephen Neale has written something about what to do with Grice and context, and S. Yable has more briefly indicated, "Implicatures happen". As like, "You can´t get RID of context." Part of the appeal of the Griceian appeal is that one HAS to work sort of more or less seriously as to the logical form of what is EXPLICITLY displayed -- so that one has less work for the morrow calculating the implicatum.
ReplyDeleteStrictly, there´s nothing much one can do with "You can´t have everyting" but intepret it LITERALLY -- at the level of the "logical form" of the "conversational move" which is part of the "game". And then proceed, via maxims, to see what lies behind the move. E.g. "Anything ABOVE 10 grand," say.
I think what irritated Wright is the lack of context in the proverbial tone, "You CAN´T have everything", as in "Never say never". It´s like echoic: "As they say, you can´t have everything -- and they must be right". But unless you specify WHY -- and Wright is honest to propose a naive answer, "Where would you put it?" -- the Utterer most likely is just repeating a cliche than expressing his own thought.
"You can't have everything" is true, sufficient, and brief. But it takes an implicature to make it relevant. I read
ReplyDelete"You can't have everything"
as
"Asking for ice cream and cake is as excessive as asking for everything, so the same constraints apply to asking for ice cream and cake as would apply to asking for everything."
Q.E.D.
Good, L. J. -- There is an air of "hyperbole" in "You can't have anything" that your gloss makes evident. Grice has just ONE example of hyperbole (as implicatum) in "Logic and Conversation":
ReplyDelete"Every nice girl loves a sailor" (song of the music hall made popular by Ella Shields in 1914 -- best known for the last line of the chorus, "Ship-ahoy, ship-ahoy!". Note, that, indeed, as Kramer suggests, the hyperbole features the 'every' which makes it hyperbolic.
I think the gloss is nowhere to be seen in Grice. He just says: Examples of implicata as 'something in the nature of a figure of speech' (or words). "Hyperbole: "Every nice girl loves a sailor"". In symbols
(Ex)(Ey) (Nx --> L(x, y)) -- with caveats over the range of 'y' -- it's notably NOT the same sailor every nice girl loves: but the same sort of 'tar'.
----- Warner in his intro to Grice 2001, mentions yet another tricky example with 'every' that may compare:
"Everybody loves my baby but my baby don't love nobody but me" -- with the caveat about the double negation NOT being logical (vide Horn on "Duplex negatio affirmat"). In this case Warner suggests that there must be a further caveat to block the implicature, "I am my baby". He argues, alla Kramer, with Q. E. D. --.
In the Kramer gloss, there is an element of 'resemblance' that irritates SOME Griceians when it comes to some of Grice's examples. E.g.
"You're the cream in my coffee". FALSE: look for the most likely comparison that makes the utterance a reference to something 'true'.
"Women are women" -- trite. Look for some utterance which compares with the tautology that is not so trite, but communicates the same message or a similar one.
Kramer's gloss:
"Asking for ice cream and cake is, by unstated criterion C, as excessive as asking for everything, so the same constraints apply to asking for ice cream and cake as would apply to asking for everything."
Note that the child is challenging that if 'cream and cake' become AS 'everything' (rather than literally becoming everything -- the 'as' still marks a comparison, a simile, rather than a metaphor), why is it that are the SAME, rather than merely SIMILAR, constraints apply.
---- My take was along the contextualisation of the 'everything' in terms of a quasi-demonstrative (alla Grice, WoW:Presupposition and Conversational Implicature) -- everything HERE is 'cake and ice cream' -- being 'everything that you have just mentioned' -- it's DeMorgan's and Venn's "universe of discourse". In a way it's Boolean. The idea would be that 'cake' AND 'icecream' would bring an 'explosion' the the 'universe of discourse' (or implosion) because they would constitute 'everything' and by some unstated criterion this is rendered 'excessive'. Or something.
but...that's a slightly different issue, JL strictly logical, having to do with the existential quantifier (if I recall Jeffrey correctly...or can find 'er, like buried under some evergreen reviews and Billy Faulkner manga...). The deduction "Everybody loves my baby but my baby don't love nobody but me" -- is (was) then "Everybody loves ..me!" (valid I believe...via a pinche tree)
ReplyDeletea problem being the colloquial use of "nobody" for anyone (which you may have hinted at)--when some saloon singer croons "I...ain't got no-bod-ay"==he's not worried about the double negation in effect saying that he does have someone (also common in mex. slang..no tengo no nadie! )
BUT the weirder problem (and I would say..Gricean, or at least semantic, rather than just logic/proof issue) concerns the predicates themselves. Like love. You don't allow "beauty" in a proposition; a fortiori, what about love? every bit as vague and non-empirical, etc (one reason some doubt LOTEM, at least in regard to natural language---say, she loves X or she doesn't love X?? all the time? to the same degree, etc). Sort of obvious as well...but logicians constantly insert terms into propositions/statements which admit of no real definition (you note that when reading Quine. However horrid and reductionist, Willard rarely uses abstract nouns or the typical whimsy logic (or pop slogans) of a Jeffrey or Lewis Carroll).
Yes. There IS a problem with "love", as in the dyadic predicate, L(x, y) -- x loves y. I would think the point by R. Warner concerns the fact that if everybody loves my baby, and everybody, logically, includes my baby: my baby loves my baby. But since she don't want nobody but me, it transpires I am my baby (should revise the Warner).
ReplyDeleteEmpirically, of course, '... loves ...' is VERY tricky -- but a behaviourist should be happy with a behavioural reduction, "Everybody feels sexual attraction for my baby, but my baby don't fall no sexual attraction but nobody but me," etc. Here the trick is subtler in that it boils down to some horrid narcissism. Or something.
it transpires I am my baby
ReplyDeleteyes, and ....everyone loves you! QED.
My sort of meta point (or conjecture) was that many if not most dyadic predicates work--or don't work-- as "love" does--actually those are relations, are they not, in the older terms (say, the fiendish Russell). Even fleshed out behaviorist-ically, they seem.... ad hoc.
Some work, I guess-- x Fathered y, xFy--but the grammar quickly outstrips the logic (ie what about objects, cases, tense, modifiers??? etc), and the real world (the behaviorist's world) enters the picture. Im not real fond of linguists (semanticists, ord-lang types, postmods, etc) but at times the linguists seem correct insofar that predicate logic only captures a bare minimum of syntactical relations (a project I have been toying with...).
Thanks. I am going to paste the R. Warner comment in a special post! Quite now!
ReplyDeleteYou are correct about the dyadic, and I'd stick to the header, which is the 'you can't have everything' -- since we can expand on 'my baby' (loved by everybody) in the specific thingy.
ReplyDeleteBut fortunately your point also applies to the 'you can't have everything' because surely we need a 'relation'. Indeed. I think Goedel worked on this, and he had a way with predicates that is fascinating. I think he demonstrated that you can't do (Kant do) much with them!
So, we have 'have' as predicate -- or relation, strictly.
"You can't have everything. Where would you put it?".
Leaving aside the 'put', which is ALSO relational, we can deal with or dwell on 'have'. This IS a vague predicate.
If Kramer is right, 'everything' is, HERE, 'icecream and cake'. "You can't have icecream and cake". Then there's the, typically fatherly, too -- don't think so --
"You can't have your cake and eat it".
Apparently, the sense here is:
"You can't have your uneaten cake and eat the cake."
This sort of trades on the equivocation of 'have'. One may argue that 'having the cake' IS eating it. So to say, "You can't have your cake and eat it" is contradictory as "2 + 2 = 4, and it's not".
So, 'have', even as it applies to 'cake' (never mind 'everything') IS vague. My favourite must be the graffito in the School of Medicine:
"Miracle in obstetrics:
Mary had a little lamb".
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