Mass nouns: from the implicatural to the metaphysical

J discusses some German idioms:

"What about the grand metaphysics, JL? The difference could relate to a universal/particular distinction more evident in the ...traditional euro languages, such as Latin and German (which have the cases, more formal declensions, etc), than in english, french, etc."

---- Yes, but I did study Greek and Latin (to no avail, really) for my Philo degree. And my Latin teacher used to tell me that the Greeks and the Latins were (and are) very confused about number.

--- In Latin and Greek, for example, the neuter plural is -a, as in "agenda" (things to be done, strictly), or "ta meta ta physika". But, sometimes, -a is also used for feminine singular (as in "Maria"). So this is confusing. Some people then are unable to say if something ('agenda') is a neuter-collective (things to be done) or something individual, as "Maria".

---

My teacher knew common-Indo-European (he would use proto-Indoeuropean to pick up girls in bars). They (the proto-Indoeuropeans) were just as confused. Later I learned some etymology of Italian. "Pagliaccio", plural, "Pagliacci". One would think that this is just a relic of Old Roman. But my teacher said that it was originally, "pagliaccios", but with the -s dropped for good measure. So, it's not like there was a direct line -- from the Graeco-Romans (who were confused) to the Romancers (who ARE confused).

The English fare not better. A friend of mine uses 'chicken' only as a plural. (Not to confuse it with 'chickenen'). He also uses 'geet' as the collective (or plural, he doesn't distinguish there) of 'goat'.

J:

"It would take some time to establish, but I think Deutsch allows for more collective nouns, such as Das Hochgebirge (see my latest note-scrawl), w/o the plural indicated."

Yes. They seem to avoid the final -s like the plague. A good collective recourse in English is 'twin' and 'both' and 'tween' as in 'bet-tween'. This is more like "DUAL". The need to lexicalise a 'pair of two'. E.g. "a pair of ..." is perhaps best rendered, I submit, my adding the formative prefix, 'th-', so that 'thball' becomes 'a pair, or two, balls'. While English only lexicalises 'two' ("They both came") rather than 'three' (or larger numbers) I find irritating.

"I said it thrice", says the Bellman in "Hunting of the Snark" ("What I say thrice is true") but that must be it.

As a consequence of this, you see that

"They both came"

neeeds a special formalisation ("Ex.Cx & Ex2 Cx & Cy"). I'm less sure what the Germans mean, as per logical form, by their exclamatives:

"Wunderbar Gebirge!"

----

But then, they possibly treat "Deutschland" as a mass noun, too.




Anglo does allow some collectives but usually indicates the plural. Or something. At least the german doesn't just append "s", but has various ways on indicating plural, collective, mass nouns, etc.