Oddly, the etymological dictionary sheds some darkness on 'pavane'.
It is a "slow, stately dance," 1530s, from Fr. pavane (1524).
So far so good.
Here there is a divergene.
It is "probably from Spanish "pavana," from "pavo", peacock. (from L. pavo), in ref. to the bird's courting movements."
-----
"But some see an Italian origin and trace the name to Padovana "Paduan.""
"Possibly there was a merger of two distinct dance words."
---- And they say that with a straight face. They get paid to provide us with right etymologies!
So,
'pavane'.
Do not multiply senses beyond necessity. If I must, I will concede that the turkey was from Padua.
Call me a parsinomist.
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There are other interesting aspects to the pavo/peahen/turkey/peacock conundrums, perhaps more linguistic than philosophic (tho' the two are not easily demarcated at times...and will probably bore you and the GC crew).
ReplyDeleteFor one, "turkey" was an anglo misnomer: the brits thought the Turkey was like peafowl from..yes, Turkey. And in french ah believe it's Dindon, as in from India. Yet...Turkeys are New World birds all the way--El Guajolote, in mex-spanish, but from Nautual (Aztec)... so there was a biological/taxonomy issue at first as well, as with many new species the jesuit paddys had not previously encounteredd--looks something like peacock, so Pavo. Nothin but Excitement.
Los Guajolotes
Yes. Turkey Walk. I should rename the thing.
ReplyDeleteWith the musical form, I'm pretty sure it was pavanne as in peacock; "pavo real" is per Cassell's, peacock in spanish (or pavon)--"real" not real but royal, as with real madrid or El Camino Real--whereas "pavo" is turkey, as in the new world sandwich-bird, hardly the old world beauty-bird. Or something.
ReplyDeleteWell. That's half of the story. Apparently, half believe it IS from "pavo", peacock. The other half believe it's because this type of 'music' originated in Italy (Veneto). And then there's I, who believe the "peacock" was from Veneto. Etc.
ReplyDeleteAh but did the musick--actually a dance, with a specific musical sound, sort of stately, with one like pegleg move-- come from Italia, or from Espana (imagine tilde)? If from It. I would probably assent to your claim that the word relates to "De Padua". Yet, if from Sp., could definitely be...De Pavon (accent over o), peacock-dance. Given the slow, stately musick, Im inclined to the latter.
ReplyDeleteWell, apparently it does come from Italy. The problem is dialectal, though.
ReplyDeletePadova is the name of the city. So that would give "Padovan", rather than "Pavana".
Yet, the etymologists claim that the name originates from the local "dialectal" version of this town in Veneto -- which, rather than "Padova", is "Pava". I should doublecheck this.
In which case, out of the local dialectal name of the town you get the adjective.
This then is from the Merriam-Webster online. No mention of the turkey.
"pavane"
Etymology: Middle French pavane, from Italian dial. pavana, from feminine of pavano of Padua, from Pava (Tuscan Padova) Padua
Date: 1535
1 : a stately court dance by couples that was introduced from southern Europe into England in the 16th century
2 : music for the pavane; also : music having the slow duple rhythm of a pavane.
Es posible, though most of the definitions allude to both meanings.
ReplyDelete"""The pavane is a processional dance common in Europe during the 16th century, whether named from an origin in Padua (padovano) or from the stately sweep of a lady's train likened to a peacock's tail. The decorous sweep of the pavane suited the new more sober Spanish-influenced courtly manners of 16th century Italy, and the pavane may have originated in Spain. It appears in dance manuals in England, France, and Italy. The term also describes the special music accompanying the dance, often paired with a livelier galliard, and the musical pavane survived hundreds of years after the dance itself was abandoned. At Louis XIV's court the pavane was superseded by the courante."""
Pavane
Sort of a processional or promenade dance--paseo, in sp.-- where the Lords and Ladies strutted their stuff, peacock-like before the feasting and revels, methinx. You get that sense in Faure's Pavane, though it's... rather more ghostly. And given that the Italian courts of the time were influenced by spaniards could be derived from "pavon".
And of course Pavane's not related to the Turkey, which is merely an anglo mistaken etymology for El Pavo, which is to say El Guajolote, which the aztecs had already domesticated (has calendar day too). Actually they still use that word for "turkey-bird" in mexico, correctly even. Do the Guajolote.
Yes. Surely an anti-Gricean may say:
ReplyDelete"Grice's theory of intentional meaning is ridiculous. He played a 'pavane'. Etymologists are still quarreling as to whether this has to do with a turkey (Latin 'pavo') or a town ("Pava", in Veneto). But the "meaning" of a 'pavane' has NOTHING to do with what a 'pavane' means.
--- Or something.
I may invent a conversation.
well, close but isn't the quarrel over whether Pavane--Pavanne, also-- relates to a noble peacock, or to Padua? I just mentioned turkey as a typical linguistic ...error. The native birds had no more to do with peacocks than chickens do...it's not the funky chicken or jive turkey, but the sexy royal peacock. And ...in terms of implicature, the musical form was considered spanish, I believe: one reason the parisians like Ravel were interested (recall that great bubblegum hit Bolero too).
ReplyDeleteOr it's just Padua dance--yet even then, it could still be...pavon, via Padua, since the spanish King was El Jefe supremo in those days (1500 or so).
Yes, you are right. Plus, -- even if it is from Italian, "Pava" (dialectal name for the city in which the dance originates), the echo with Latin (as per Roman) "pavo" would still be considered important. I mean, imagine if I call a dance "the Hummingbird" because it originates in a town called "Humming". Surely the similarity with the word 'hummingbird' may still be relevant in the vulgar connotations of the word. Or not.
ReplyDeleteRelated to this, Korta's entry in the Stanford encyclopedia ('pragmatics') has a funny distinction: 'epistemic versus doxastic'. They (for the article was written by Korta and Perry) that 'doxastic' (belief) is what counts in pragmatics, not 'epistemic' (knowledge). So the turkey bird can still be related to the 'peacock'. What J calls a linguistic error is just most language works most of the times: via beliefs which can be usually false.
ReplyDelete